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The Sterling Family Law Show
The Sterling Family Law Show is where successful family law attorneys share the exact systems they used to build million-dollar practices.
Host Jeff Hughes scaled Sterling Lawyers from zero to $17M with 27 attorneys.
Co-host Tyler Dolph runs Rocket Clicks, the agency in charge of supercharging Sterling and other family law practices to success using revenue-first marketing strategies.
Together, they share the playbook for building the law firm of your dreams.
If you're looking to grow exponentially, generate revenue, and get good at business, this podcast is for you.
The Sterling Family Law Show
[EP1] Don't Start a Law Firm Partnership Until You Listen To This
Law firm partnerships can destroy your practice - or build an empire. Here's how Michelle O'Neil turned her biggest courtroom rival into her business partner and grew to 15+ attorneys.
Michelle reveals how she escaped solo practice burnout by partnering with her former courtroom enemy to build OW Lawyers into a statewide firm.
Here's the brutal truth: Michelle felt like Atlas carrying the world on her shoulders. Her solution? Team up with the attorney who fought her tooth and nail in court. Ten years later, they're crushing it.
Tyler Dolph also knows partnerships work since they used these same principles to grow Sterling Lawyers to $17M.
📲 Subscribe Now: https://www.youtube.com/@TylerxDolph
📝 Schedule a FREE Family Law Firm Audit: rocketclicks.com/schedule-a-family-law-quick-audit
📄 CHAPTERS
0:00 - OW Lawyers Partnership Story: From Opposing Counsel to Business Partners
3:22 - Michelle's Solo Practice Burnout: The Atlas Problem Every Firm Owner Faces 5:59 - The Coffee Meeting That Started a 15-Attorney Firm
7:16 - Why Everyone Bet Against Their Partnership (And Lost)
11:32 - The Ball on the Table: Michelle's Conflict Resolution System
15:26 - Passion Scale Method: How OW Lawyers Makes Tough Decisions
22:55 - Fifth Move Thinking: Michelle's Chess Strategy for Law Firm Growth
27:14 - Bridge Building: How Michelle Left Every Job the Right Way
----------------------
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Follow these steps:
1. SUBSCRIBE TO JEFF'S NEWSLETTER: https://jsterlinghughes.com/
2. BOOK A FREE 30-MINUTE AUDIT WITH US: https://rocketclicks.com/schedule-a-family-law-quick-audit/
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4. TELL US WHAT YOU WANT:
Tell us in the comments if you liked this episode and what other kinds of episodes you would like to see.
Michelle started OW Law with an opposing counsel from a case she was on, who fought tooth and nail with her and did an amazing job, that they eventually started their own law firm and have grown it to over 15 attorneys. Her story is amazing. My name is Tyler Dolph. I am the CEO of our agency that works exclusively with family law firms, called Rocket Clicks, and we also own and operate our own law firm that has over 30 attorneys, called Sterling Lawyers. Today I interview Michelle. Michelle started OW Law with her business partner. Michelle started OW Law with her business partner. She has incredible nuggets to share as it relates to being a business partner, growing a law firm to a very large size, and shares some great leadership wisdom with us. I really hope you enjoy it, michelle. Thank you so much for being with us today. It's great to see you.
Speaker 2:I appreciate it, thank you.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Give us a little background introduction to you and your firm and then I'd love to hear the origin story as well.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm Michelle O'Neill. I'm one of the two shareholders of O'Neill Wysocki, now known as OW Lawyers. We did go through a trademark and branding that rolled out in January of this year, so about almost six months ago.
Speaker 1:It's beautiful, by the way. I love the owl.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thank you. So we've had the owl in place for all 10 years that we've been in business. But in Texas a couple of years ago they passed a new law that allowed us to brand law firms instead of using partner names only. So when they passed that new law, we went ahead and branded the name that we're known for across the state, which is Owl Lawyers, and we trademarked that, as well as our tagline, which is the wise choice that goes with our OWL branding and our logo. And then in January, we chose to go ahead and roll out the new branding. So the firm name is still officially O'Neill Wysocki PC, but we now use the trademark name DBA OWL Lawyers with the registered trademark. So Michael and I are the two owners of the firm and we've been together now, for it'll be 10 years June the 1st.
Speaker 1:That's amazing.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Right now we're solely focused on family law, although part of the rebrand is we rebranded from solely family law to trial law with the intent that we are planning to expand our offerings into some civil lit and business lit, because they do mesh with really the clientele base that we have. So that's kind of our future growth plan.
Speaker 1:Very cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's you know. That's basically us. We are a statewide firm all across Texas. We have a brand that is known throughout Texas, somewhat national also, but we are Texas lawyers, so we practice in Texas.
Speaker 1:Love it. How did you get your start, Michelle? Give us a little background on you little background on you.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm a 30-something year lawyer. We don't have to talk about something, We'll just use a plus sign. But yeah, I mean I'm a 30-year lawyer and Michael, I think, is approaching his 20th year. So you know, we were experienced lawyers.
Speaker 2:Whenever we got together, I had had my own firm I guess what you call a solo firm with a couple of associates, and I kind of burnt out on that. I felt like I was Atlas, just carrying the world around on my shoulders and all of my employees and all of their children and being solely responsible for everything and everybody and not really having any support system to help me carry everybody's world. And I'd burn out on that and closed my firm and left and gone to work for another, a deep carpet civil law firm, and that you know as what happens. You know, once you've kind of had a taste of working for yourself, you kind of almost can't go back to working for somebody else. That's really hard.
Speaker 2:So that wasn't really the solution for me either, and Michael was working for another firm and really had a desire to be out on his own as well. So we had what we felt was a similarity of perspectives in marketing. Mine was more internet-based. His was a little bit more relationship, was more internet-based, His was a little bit more relationship and print marketing-based. But a similar concept and approach to marketing from a perspective of its importance in the law firm. You probably know this and maybe your viewers do, but back in the day law firm marketing was not a thing and most lawyers your pages.
Speaker 1:That was it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, most lawyers didn't think that that was ethical for lawyers to market themselves. But Michael and I really had you know, both independently a different view of that and so whenever we got together we both had a similarity of viewpoint. Whenever we first started having discussions about forming the firm, you know we had had a case against each other. We didn't really mesh well on the case.
Speaker 2:I won, but we fought like cats and dogs, battled it out and duped it out and, I think, formed a real foundation of respect for each other because of how we duped it out on the case. Like you know, like you would with any adversary in any fight, when you really have a worthy opponent, you have that mutual respect for each other from just the battle. And we did definitely have that mutual respect based on the battle that we had over a very contested case. So I wouldn't say that it was like we were buddies, but we had a couple of mutual friends that suggested hey, he's not real happy with his situation, you're not real happy with yours, but you'll have so much similarities that you really ought to have a conversation. And I think he and I both were kind nah, I don't think that's a good idea and they're like yeah, it is, just don't have it happen and so we both agreed to have coffee and have a conversation and realized that it really was a good idea when we got together and we formed the firm.
Speaker 2:I think that the family law community around the Dallas area that knew both of us independently and knew both of us as advocates and gladiators in the courtroom I think they all had an over-under bet going on as to how long it would take till it combusted. The longest that anybody gave us on their over-under was about a year.
Speaker 1:You crushed it.
Speaker 2:And 10 years later they all lost their bets. So none of them have ever paid me off for that, but they all lost their bets. So they none of them have ever paid me off for that, but but they all lost their bets on how long it would last.
Speaker 1:Incredible Like what an amazing opportunity to to have this adversary in the courtroom and then turn them into a business partner.
Speaker 2:I want to say you know that's one of the lessons, right? I mean you know that's one of the lessons for anybody out there that's looking at. You know, being an entrepreneur going into whether it's a law practice or really any business is, you have to turn them into opportunities. You have to see opportunity in your obstacles. That's 100% what entrepreneurship is about, whether it's a law firm or any other business.
Speaker 1:Well said. And to see that opportunity, to see that adversary as an opportunity, I think is something really difficult for a lot of people because they could immediately just be turned off like, oh, I don't want any part of that, but you saw it as, hey, wait, he's actually really good and right, but that's, but that's a hundred percent what you should be looking for.
Speaker 2:Like you don't want to look for your yes men, like you don't want to look for people that are just like you, you have to look for people that are going to help you propel your growth and to propel your growth you can't be having people that are the same as you, that are sitting here in your comfort zone. You know, encouraging your comfort zone, you have to have people around you, surround yourself with people that level you up. And you know, and for Michael and I, you know we leveled each other up in the arena, right in the competition arena. You know we were battling it out, duking it out. You know, from the lawyer perspective I mean, if there's any non-lawyers out there, that sounds so adversarial. And you know, from the lawyer perspective, like that's what we do.
Speaker 1:Part of the deal.
Speaker 2:It's literally what we do is duke it out in the courtroom, but you know, we shake hands kind of like what was the cartoon You're probably too young for that, but the cartoon, the Roadrunner and Sam the Sheepdog, you know and they would clock in and then do their job. You know, which was to chase each other around all day and fight, which was to chase each other around all day and fight, and then at the end of the day or at lunch they'd clock out and eat lunch together and then they'd clock back in and fight and then they'd clock out and shake hands and go home to their families. But you've got to surround yourself with people that are going to help you level up, and if you're looking at going to business with yourself or for yourself, your choices are literally be an entrepreneur on your own. So then you have to do it all.
Speaker 2:You have to, you know, wear all the hats in the business the HR hat, the finance hat, the operations hat, the marketing hat, the sales hat, the leadership hat, like all the hats plus all the hats you wear at home. Hat the leadership hat, like all the hats plus all the hats you wear at home. Or you can look around and find a law partner. You know somebody to partner with you in your entrepreneurial journey whether it's law firm or any other entrepreneurial journey, and you know, find somebody that's going to help you carry the load. Like I said, I felt like Atlas with all the load. So find somebody who's going to give not 50%, 100%. You give 100% and you give 100% and both of you help carry the load and help each other level up.
Speaker 1:Well said. I want to dive into that a little bit because I think it's so important. Like practically what you're saying, everyone's like yeah, sure, that makes sense, but talk about the in the trenches. You know you're you're starting a business with someone who you don't know very well. You have to build a relationship over time. There's going to be conflict, there's going to be different points of view. How did you manage to do that over the last 10 years, to build a level of of respect and conversation, knowing that you want to be partners, because you're going to push back against each other. You're going to make each other better. But that's not easy, right?
Speaker 2:Well, I think, like any relationship I mean a business relationship, a personal relationship, a client relationship it's all about communication and and that's just how we approached it we just agreed that we were going to communicate and you know you've got to leave your emotions out of it. You know you've got to have a communication skill and an emotional skill level that you can say you know, this is a business discussion, we're going to have a business discussion, we're not going to get emotional about it, I'm not going to get all my feelings involved. You know, and we're going to keep this on the level that you know, we can have a grown up discussion, we can have this. You know, whatever the problem is, see the problem as independent of the emotion and look at it like we're collaborating together to solve whatever the problem is. So, you know, I think it just comes down to every relationship that you have, whether it's your clients, your opposing counsel, your judge, your law partner, your at-home partner All of those are relationships and it's just relationship management which comes down to communication 100%.
Speaker 1:I think one thing we say around here is attack the issue, not the person.
Speaker 2:Absolutely 100%. That's absolutely 100%. It's all about building that rapport and that collaboration with the person to deal with the issue. I think of it in my mind. I always think of it like the ball is sitting on the table and the ball is the problem. I try not to use the word problem, but that's like how we would describe it. But the ball is the issue, whether it's the issue that needs to be solved in the case, or whether it's the issue that needs to be solved between business partners, or whether it's the issue that needs to be solved between at home partners. The ball is the issue and the issue sits on the table. It's not in my lap, it's not in your lap. It's sitting on the table, it's in the neutral position. And then we both work, you know, to collaborate to solve the issue.
Speaker 1:That's a great analogy. What about if you're in a room with your other attorneys and there's four different opinions? Does that still work? Maybe when there's not consensus?
Speaker 2:You know the way that Michael and I've always approached it. Of course we're just two people. You know the way that Michael and I've always approached it. Of course we're just two people, we aren't four. But we just always said that we aren't going to move forward if we're not 100% in alignment. And you know, and there have been times where he felt strongly about a decision and I'd give him my 1%, you know, like I may not have felt super strongly about something, but he did, and I'd say, ok, well, I'm going to relent because you feel that strongly. Or I'd feel strongly about something and he'd say, okay, well, I'll relent, but if we didn't have that alignment, we didn't move forward until we did. So that's you know.
Speaker 2:I think, whether it's two people or four people, I think that's where you have to be and you just have to keep working the problem. Maybe you have to look at it from a different perspective. You're not looking at the problem the right way. You're locked into too much on one view of each person, and so maybe you need to see a different facet of the problem and get creative. But yeah, I still think that if you just don't have consensus, you just need more viewpoints. You need to brainstorm more. You haven't looked at the issue enough.
Speaker 1:I totally agree. Something that we found to be really effective is sometimes titles or ownership king in the way. And you know, know, the team who you rely on for feedback will go with you because they think you're really passionate or you talk with enthusiasm but really you may not be, and so we use like a number system on this and I'm like, well, I'm a three on this, I don't really care, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to die on this hill, and so if you're a 10 and you believe in it, like you should go for it because this is something that you are very passionate about and you believe in strongly and I'm a three. So by by naming that emotion or that, that number as it relates to the passion, it really helps us move through those effectively.
Speaker 2:Sure, sure. I mean you know, and at the other side of that that thing, whatever that is you're passionate about, you also have to be prepared that if it doesn't work out like you also have to take the ownership for that. If you were a 10 on that passion scale that you really wanted to do this thing. But then, it doesn't.
Speaker 2:It doesn't work out Like you got to own that. You know the other people might've been right about it and you were wrong. And so the next time you know that you're a 10 on a passion scale and you're getting some pushback on something, you know you may have to look at it differently or maybe call in a third party to kind of break that tie or something because your, your perspective may not be. You know it may not be where it needs to be.
Speaker 1:So you know you've also got to own your stuff when you have that position too 100%, and I think a lot of what we're talking about, michelle, is leadership and expansion, and you know a lot of law firms are in that position you were in in your solo firm, where they control everything. They have a difficult time letting go of the branch and delegating or relegating control to other partners or other attorneys. How did you work through that? How were you able to recognize, oh my gosh, the whole world is on my shoulders. I have to change, because I'm the problem, like I am the issue as to why I can't expand or have this lifestyle that I'm looking for. Talk us through, like, what changed in you and how were you able to create a great you know large firm that you have now?
Speaker 2:I think that you always have to be learning. You can't ever stop learning. I believe that you can learn something from literally anybody that you come across. You can learn something from the janitor of your building. You can learn something from the podcasts of CEOs or, like your podcasts, of other law firm leaders. You can literally learn something from everybody that you come across. They have something to teach you. And as long as you approach life from that humility standpoint and don't ever get to, as my mama would say, too big for your britches then you keep growing and you keep learning, then you keep growing and you keep learning. And entrepreneurship, especially solopreneurship, is one of the hardest jobs in the world. Now it's also the thing that carries our country and carries our economy. But it is the hardest thing because you are literally atlas with the entire world of your staff, your employees in your business and, in some ways, the economy of our country on your shoulders.
Speaker 1:And it's lonely.
Speaker 2:And it's lonely, oh my gosh. I heard an interview I don't know if you follow Success Story with Scott Clary, but a really good podcast to follow if you're an entrepreneur and in business. But he interviewed Grant Cardone this week and I'm a big Grant Cardone fan and I do a lot of sales, sales and marketing and leadership work with him and they're good friends of mine. He and Elena are good friends of mine. But Scott Clary interviewed Grant Cardone and one of the clips he released this week Grant Cardone literally said that. He said my job is one of the loneliest jobs in the world and you remember he's not a solopreneur. He said my job ultimately is I have to make the decision and sometimes all the people that I surround myself my business partners, my wife or whatever like sometimes I have to make the call and people don't agree with the call I make, but I have to make it. Ultimately it's my decision and sometimes that's lonely because they don't agree with me and they push back on me and I still have to be the one that makes the call and lives with that decision. So you know, that's not any different for billionaire Grant Cardone in his billion dollar I don't know how many companies he owns now 10 or however many, we'll say 10 just to be a round number. But you know that's not any different for billionaire Grant Cardone than it is for a solopreneur running a small law firm or a small, you know mom shop while she's taking care of her kiddos.
Speaker 2:It is lonely at the top. You've got to make the calls. You've got to have the confidence in yourself and the leadership abilities to make those hard, tough decisions. It may be firing a staff member today, I mean, those are always for me the hardest things to do. Even if they deserve it, even if you know that it's the right decision, it's still tough because it has ripple effects. So you know it's lonely but you've got to make the tough calls. But that's ultimately your job. Your job as an entrepreneur is to make the tough calls.
Speaker 1:And, I think, being going from a solopreneur to then having the success that you've had and reflecting back on those moments, it's easy to see some of those key decisions and key calls that you've made. If I'm a solopreneur and I'm frustrated because I thought, hey, I'm gonna be my own boss, I am gonna create my own future, but now I'm working 80 hours a week, I never see my kids, what are some of those decisions or some of those obstacles that have to get out of the way in order for that firm owner to be able to get closer to that dream?
Speaker 2:You know? Look, my mama told me nobody ever promised you a rose garden. So being an entrepreneur, law practice or business, it's not going to be easy. If you think you can do this and work 20 hours a week and make all the money, you're wrong. That's not how this works. You know, being an entrepreneur, owning your own law firm whether it's a solopreneur shop or whether it's a big law firm like mine or law firms that are even bigger than mine you know that's not how it works. I work more than anybody outside that door. I work more hours than anybody that walks outside that door, anybody that is on my payroll or on my staff. They don't outwork me. I bill more hours. I non-bill more hours. I spend more admin time. When I wake up in the morning, I think about this place. When I go to sleep at night, I think about this place. When I wake up at 2 am, you know I think about this place and so does my partner. So it's not easy. You ask me, you know, what are some strategies that a young person who wants to build a law firm can implement?
Speaker 2:I believe in fifth move thinking. That's a chess reference, but and interestingly, I actually don't play chess with chess pieces. I play chess with law firms and entrepreneurship and cases, case management. But I implement what I call fifth move thinking, which means you know you have to make a decision. So in any decision you make the next decision and then you look at what are the ripple effects that are going to happen from that decision and then what's the next thing that's going to happen, what's the counter move that the other side is going to have. So your opponent, you know whatever if it's a case, or you know what is the counter attack going to be, what's the long-term effect of the decision. And then is your perspective built on winning the war, not the battle. You know you can lose a battle but win a war. So if it's a case decision, like if you're analyzing strategy to win a case, same fifth move thinking applies. But if you're building a law firm, same fifth move thinking applies.
Speaker 2:If you're making an HR decision, the same fifth move thinking applies. If you're making an HR decision, the same fifth move thinking applies. And ultimately, all of that boils down to you make the long-term decision, not the short-term decision. But in the analysis of how to make the long-term decision, those are the factors you look at you make the next decision because you have to make quick decisions. You can't sit around and think about it forever. You look at those ripple effects. You look at what's that counterattack going to be, what's the long-term effect, and are you ultimately hitting your target, which is to win the war. What is the war you're trying to win, what is the target you're trying to hit, and are you accomplishing that target as opposed to your short-term goals?
Speaker 1:That reference is so much better than the one I use, which is for the longest time. I'm like I got to think of something else. But we call it like you have to step over a few wounded soldiers to take out the sniper right. And you got to be willing to do that because if you're just fighting every single fire that's in front of you, you're never going to realize the source of the fire. You're never going to get to the source.
Speaker 2:Well and right. I mean, that's a strategic analysis too, right? What you're saying is that you have to make sacrifices and in any business or any quote unquote battle, whether that's a case, whether that's entrepreneurship you know any struggle that you're in, if it's a relationship, even like there's going to be short term sacrifices to accomplish the long term goal. And that's just strategic thinking. So you know, when you're thinking about going into business for yourself, you have to focus on that strategic thinking. And where you want to be. You know. I say that everything I learned about life I learned from my mama, but everything I learned about business I learned from my daddy. And you know my daddy would say if you don't know where you're going, how are you going to know if you get there? And that's just another way of putting it that you have to have strategic thinking. You have to set your long range goals, you have to know what war you want to win and then you have to lay your battle plan.
Speaker 1:So good, it's so strong. I want to end on just a few additional pieces of advice for the solopreneur, for the lawyer who's at a big firm, who's thinking about going out on their own. You've given us so many nuggets today, michelle, and I'm so grateful for them. Is there anything else that you can share with our audience? As it relates to like, hey, how do you leave that big firm? How do you? What are the steps or things that you need to think about before going out on your own? One thing that we hear often is the hey, there's really not any business classes in law school. There's no. Here's how. Oh, by the way, you have to make payroll and you got to pay for rent and you know all these different things. From your perspective, what are the couple of things that someone should think about?
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I mean number one you got to have a plan so you know, before you ever quit this is another thing my daddy taught me like, quit your job on your own time, not on somebody else's time. So you got to have a plan that when you start thinking about, you know that you want to go do your own thing. You got to start planning in advance, making connections, networking. Build your network. Your network is your net worth. That's a Grant Cardonism. So start building that connections list and taking those lunches. And you know, thinking through, you know when I do this, I'm going to need to have these people lined up that you're not going to lunch and telling them I'm about to go do my thing. You know, don't do that, just build those relationships. It's all about relationships. So build your relationships up so that when it comes time to pull your trigger, then you've got those relationships and then you can go have those conversations.
Speaker 2:So, number one start getting your plan together way in advance. Part of that plan is you may need to go take some business classes so that you know how to set up and structure a business. You may need to go take some sales and marketing classes and, like I said I'm a big Grant Cardone fan. There's plenty of ways you can do that through Cardone training through Cardone University. There's plenty of ways you can do that through Cardone training through Cardone University. He has all of his stuff online. You can subscribe to Cardone University online and do it all in the comfort of your own home. You can stick a little AirPod in your ear and do it while you're doing something else and learn about sales and marketing and structures and all sorts of things that can help you. Even though it's business training, it can help you learn how to do sales and marketing, even in a law firm. So train yourself before you ever need that information.
Speaker 2:Then the other thing I would tell a young lawyer wanting to do that is don't burn bridges, and I think this has been so important in my history.
Speaker 2:We tend to let our emotions get the better of us. Whatever that struggle is that you're having in your firm right now that is frustrating you about your current scenario, frustrating you about your current situation. Set those emotions aside and remember your big picture, because you don't want to burn that bridge. You know it's real easy in the moment, in the frustration, whatever that is, that you can get angry, you can get mad, you can get, you know, emotional about it and let that bubble up and boil up and you've just got to take a deep breath and keep your perspective and keep your head about you and not your heart and let that die down and remember the war, not the battle that you're trying to work at that moment. And remember your strategy because if you burn that bridge, it's going to follow you. So I've been really lucky over my career Maybe not, maybe luck's not the right word for it I've been very strategic that every time I left a job, you know I was very cognizant to overperform the job.
Speaker 1:All the way to the end.
Speaker 2:Walking out the door.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:You know I overperformed my fiduciary duty to them. I overperformed my fiduciary duty to them. I overperformed still bringing in cases. I overperformed billing hours all the way up to the day the door hit my ass on the way out. So I hope I-.
Speaker 1:Oh no, it's all good.
Speaker 2:So you know, the day that I walked out the door, I still overperformed so that nobody could ever critique the way that I left, so that everybody would always say, at the end, michelle still did the right thing.
Speaker 1:So big.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so then my integrity was still in place even as I was exiting, and I think that really has served me well. I still consider these men that I worked for as friends and mentors, and even as Michael and I started this firm, one of the men that actually put us together was a gentleman that we both had worked for. Michael was working for him at the time and I had previously worked for him and exited his firm. So you know so he was actually a mentor to both of us, bringing us together, knowing us very well, and you know so, firms that I have exited have ended up being mentors to me as I've grown, and you know just in my practice and in my career. So just don't ever burn those bridges.
Speaker 1:And well, that is a piece of advice that we don't give out enough, because relationships end, jobs end, all the things, and they're going to remember those last few moments and if you don't end, well that it's going to tarnish anything that you did while you were there. Tarnish anything that you did while you were there.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent. You know the statistics for businesses. You know businesses fail and not. You know law firm is a business. So the statistics for business failure are high and you know if a business, whether it's a law firm or otherwise, makes it three to five years it's kind of like a marriage that makes it seven years You're beating the odds. You know and and and. So if you're, if you're going into business for yourself and you make it three to five years like you're beating the odds, but the chances are you won't, so you've got to fight for it to beat the odds. But if you don't, you've got to hedge your bets. You don't want to burn those bridges. You got to keep those relationships intact, just in case you ever need to go revisit them.
Speaker 1:So well said, michelle. I wish we had three hours together because you have provided so much just amazing nuggets for our audience and for myself. I'm so grateful for you and the time we were able to spend, and hope that you will come back and continue to share with us. Thank you so much for you and the time we were able to spend, and hope that you will come back and continue to share with us.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:If you enjoyed this amazing interview with Michelle, make sure to check out the other interviews we've done. We love this interview series and it gives us an opportunity to learn and grow from other law firm owners in our space doing amazing things. There's one that you should check out right here.
